Transcript available; see F0083-03-004 Transcript of Interview with Elgin Blair and Richard Brown
In this oral history interview Elgin Blair and Richard Brown discuss their lives in Toronto as gay men. The interview begins with Elgin (58 years old) commenting on his coming out experience, his purit…
Transcript available; see F0083-03-004 Transcript of Interview with Elgin Blair and Richard Brown
In this oral history interview Elgin Blair and Richard Brown discuss their lives in Toronto as gay men. The interview begins with Elgin (58 years old) commenting on his coming out experience, his puritanical upbringing, his struggle to accept his homosexuality, time in service during the war, radical consciousness, and his work in the Unitarian gay caucus. Other topics include gay social structure in Toronto in the 1950s, gay bars, and Elgin’s involvement in the gay liberation movement and gay organizations such as CHAT, The Body Politic, Older Gay Association, and the Gays and Lesbians against Disarmament (GLAD), as well as in the CCF. Elgin also discusses how bars and pubs, and the people who met there, were instrumental in his coping with depression and sexual orientation. Richard Brown joins the conversation in the second half of the interview. He discusses the important role of gay business like bars and baths in the building of the gay community. He also comments on his personal life, growing up, coming out experience, and involvement in Lambda.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
Digital copy and original audio cassette. Original cassette tape located in A/V room.
Transcript available; see F0083-03-004 Transcript of Interview with Elgin Blair and Richard Brown.
In this oral history interview Elgin Blair and Richard Brown discuss their lives in Toronto as gay men. The interview begins with Elgin (58 years old) commenting on his coming out experience, his puri…
Transcript available; see F0083-03-004 Transcript of Interview with Elgin Blair and Richard Brown.
In this oral history interview Elgin Blair and Richard Brown discuss their lives in Toronto as gay men. The interview begins with Elgin (58 years old) commenting on his coming out experience, his puritanical upbringing, his struggle to accept his homosexuality, time in service during the war, radical consciousness, and his work in the Unitarian gay caucus. Other topics include gay social structure in Toronto in the 1950s, gay bars, and Elgin’s involvement in the gay liberation movement and gay organizations such as CHAT, The Body Politic, Older Gay Association, and the Gays and Lesbians against Disarmament (GLAD), as well as in the CCF. Elgin also discusses how bars and pubs, and the people who met there, were instrumental in his coping with depression and sexual orientation. Richard Brown joins the conversation in the second half of the interview. He discusses the important role of gay business like bars and baths in the building of the gay community. He also comments on his personal life, growing up, coming out experience, and involvement in Lambda.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
Digital copy and original audio cassette. Original cassette tape located in A/V room.
SIDE A:
The interview opens with Lionel saying they will ‘pick up where they left off’. Alan discusses taking the first gay-oriented course at University of Toronto, taught by Michael Lynch. Alan also mentions attending a few CHAT meetings. Alan also discusses the danger of cruising, and particular…
SIDE A:
The interview opens with Lionel saying they will ‘pick up where they left off’. Alan discusses taking the first gay-oriented course at University of Toronto, taught by Michael Lynch. Alan also mentions attending a few CHAT meetings. Alan also discusses the danger of cruising, and particularly cruising theatres in Calgary. Alan discusses evaluating where he wants his future to go, and trying to under go a life ‘cleaning’ physically, emotionally and intellectually. Alan also mentions taking a weekend course titled ‘AIDS Mastery’. Alan discusses the various lessons taught in the workshops, including telling himself that he loved himself, and looking at himself in the mirror for at least one minute every day. Alan mentions being caught cruising in Bloor station by the police, but he can’t remember if he was taken to the police station.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, Calgary, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Alan recounts a story of him cruising north of the creek in David Balfour Park, and being caught with a partner. Alan also recounts his positive test results for his HIV test, and how he coped with discovering he tested seropositive at a time when very little information on HIV and the validity of test results was available or accessible. Alan recounts telling his sexual partners about his results, and many of them still wanting to have sex with him. Alan predominantly has oral sex, and he does not enjoy using condoms due to the texture and taste of them. Alan questions the terminology of not taking any ‘unnecessary risks’ — as, under that framework, it appears sex as a whole is unnecessary. He considers attending a sex addiction treatment program, so that he can go abstinent. Alan talks about his other HIV positive friends, some of whom have stayed with him. Alan discusses attending church, and particularly his likes and dislikes for MCC (Metropolitan Community Church). Alan says he feels like an alien, a misfit on the planet. Many of the churches he has attended have validated this feeling for him.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
NOTE: The archivist notes that this interviewee’s voice sounds extremely similar to Alan McMurray. It is likely that ‘AM’ refers to Alan McMurray. However, note that — if this is true — we presently only have sides 1 and 2, and sides 5 and 6, of Lionel’s fifth interview with Alan McMurray. …
SIDE A:
NOTE: The archivist notes that this interviewee’s voice sounds extremely similar to Alan McMurray. It is likely that ‘AM’ refers to Alan McMurray. However, note that — if this is true — we presently only have sides 1 and 2, and sides 5 and 6, of Lionel’s fifth interview with Alan McMurray. Additionally. there is no date written down on this tape, nor is it mentioned in the recordings.
Recording begins mid-interview, with AM discussing flirting a member of a church he is somehow affiliated with. AM reviews a set of photographs with Lionel, with subjects including AM’s family, himself working as a dance teacher, and previous partners of AM. Lionel tells his own story of a police encounter, while cruising and having oral sex with a man in a park in Toronto. Lionel ran away from the police and managed to escape arrest. Lionel and AM then discuss about Peter Maloney being ‘slimy’. They also discuss having sex with men whom they are not attracted to.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Lionel continues to review photographs, including photos from AM’s trip to Salt Lake City, and his extended family. AM discusses various places he lives, and the places he would cruise — including park washrooms and hotels that had glory holes in Sarnia and Detroit.
Dates and locations discussed: Sarnia, Detroit, Toronto, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE E:
Bob recounts being arrested for taking a young sex worker to a John, after his wire was tapped. At the time of his arrest, the baths were already surrounded by the police as well. Upon returning to the baths, there were about 300 gay people on the streets, screaming and shouting and rocking…
SIDE E:
Bob recounts being arrested for taking a young sex worker to a John, after his wire was tapped. At the time of his arrest, the baths were already surrounded by the police as well. Upon returning to the baths, there were about 300 gay people on the streets, screaming and shouting and rocking the police cars - gathered from the nearby bars when folks realized the Tubs were being raided (including George Hislop and Peter Maloney). Bob mentions that the Hot Tub raids were the only baths where they did not arrest any of the ‘found-ins’. Bob mentions another bath, were patrons during the raid had the room numbers written on their backs in black crayon. While being interrogated, Bob requested to see Peter Maloney, Maloney told Bob they had 18 charges on him. Bob and Peter were taken to 51 Division. Bob’s bail was set at 5000$. The Tubs opened up the night after (closed only for one night), but fewer and fewer clients came due to fear of the raids. Soon after, they had lost 70% of their patronage, and Bob decided to close it. But, the employees demanded to keep it open, offering to reduce their wages or work for free. Interview cuts out at 15 minutes, and subsequently the audio comes in and out. Bob has to leave, so the interview cuts out.
Another interview recorded on the same tape begins. This was recorded on June 18, 1988 (two weeks later). Bob decided to drive down to a Florida with a young man, where Bob got jobs working at two hotels, and the young man got a job at Burger King (this was around June). The young man, Derek, stole all of Bob’s stuff and left Florida back for Toronto. Bob rented another car and tried to find him, driving all the way to New York. While in New York, Bob began working at an escort agency, and then expanded the service into Boston. While in Boston, an informant let the police know Bob was there. The police caught an underage sex worker working with the agency. Bob was taken to court, and charged for ‘transporting a minor across state lines for prostitution’. He says he could not be charged for this as he had not transported the sex worker. Bob discusses the details of his court trail, and his experience at a federal prison in Lake Placid. Bob came back to Canada through a prisoner exchange program, and thus was able to serve the two jail sentences at once. Bob moved to Middlehaven, a maximum security prison in Kingston, and was then transferred to Joyceville (medium security), where he served time for two years.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, Boston, Kingston, Florida, New York, 1980s
SIDE F:
While in Joyceville, Bob received a large inheritance, and called a lawyer in Kingston, who guided him to plead guilty to all 18 charges (including sodomy). After pleading guilty, the judge did not give Bob much time (even despite the unrecovered car) - totalling to only 18 months total, running concurrently with the sentence from the states. In the end, Bob was in prison from the beginning of 1981, until 1984 (and was away from Toronto for all the bathhouse raids demonstrations). Bob further discusses his friend, Eddy, who was bludgeoned to death by an ashtray by a young man. Bob talks about the evolution of gay community in Toronto, and no longer feeling like there is a ‘gay family’ because of influx of gay men attending the bars. Bob also mentions a dissatisfaction with Xtra, and the closing of Body Politic. Bob also discusses the guides to gay businesses in Toronto he published in Toronto. At the end of the tape, Lionel and Bob talk about perceptions of the gay community in the 80s and the impact of HIV/AIDS. Bob speaks briefly on his faith, and seeing ‘certain prophecies fulfilled’. Lionel strongly disagrees, having also been raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, and emphasizes his feelings on JW perspectives on ‘homosexuality’.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, Joyceville, Kingston, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
Lionel briefly discusses with Alan his own experience living in Toronto. Alan was born in Orton, Alberta in 1926. When he lived there, it was a rural farm community, that was mostly Mormon. McMurray gets emotional discussing a his father’s nervous breakdown, suicidal tendencies. His father …
SIDE A:
Lionel briefly discusses with Alan his own experience living in Toronto. Alan was born in Orton, Alberta in 1926. When he lived there, it was a rural farm community, that was mostly Mormon. McMurray gets emotional discussing a his father’s nervous breakdown, suicidal tendencies. His father was eventually was taken away. McMurray began crying. Alan discusses his own mental health, and his feeling “really deserted”. At age 38, Alan found out that his birth was by accident, and that his mother wanted a daughter or no child at all. Alan moved to Calgary later in life. Alan begins to cry again, about leaving his brother in Orton when they moved to Calgary. His brother in Orton died, by committing suicide, while living in Calgary. Alan felt it was his fault, and stating that if he wasn’t born his brother would not have died.
Dates and locations discussed: Orton, Calgary, Alberta, Toronto, 1930s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
CW: Misogyny, ableism (use of the “r-word”), bestiality
Alan discusses early life experiences, around the age of 5, including a sexual experience with a young girl, which involved oral sex. The young girl then told his mother about it, and Alan was punished. Alan said that, after that, he made a decision that “women could never be trusted”. Alan also describes Orton as an exclusionary community, and the mormons there as hypocritical. Alan discusses other early sexual experiences with boys. Then, Alan recounts a sexual experience in Calgary at age 13. Alan recounts engaging in bestiality, having a sexual experience with a dog. Alan, says that, comtemporaneous to the interview, he does not practice safe sex. He says he has come down with a flu, and is afraid that he might have HIV/AIDS. Lionel advises Alan to have safe sex, and that “safe sex is better than no sex at all”. Alan feels that there are “no guarantees”. Lionel describes the HIV/AIDS epidemic as “war”. Both him and Alan feel that, in the future, not only their community (gay men) will be suffering from HIV/AIDS. Lionel discusses boycotting Donna Summer due to her comments about HIV/AIDS.
Dates and locations discussed: Orton, Calgary, Alberta, Toronto, 1930s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE C:
Alan recounts later sexual experiences in Calgary, with older men. Alan was paid a dime for one of his sexual experiences. These experiences happened in parks, bathrooms and movie theatres. Lionel says that Alan is “more honest than anyone [he’s] talked to”, but cuts the interview short. Li…
SIDE C:
Alan recounts later sexual experiences in Calgary, with older men. Alan was paid a dime for one of his sexual experiences. These experiences happened in parks, bathrooms and movie theatres. Lionel says that Alan is “more honest than anyone [he’s] talked to”, but cuts the interview short. Lionel intends to arrange another interview session. The recording re-resumes. Alan discusses his health issues. Alan continues to discuss sexual experiences, including one at Calgary Stampede with a Black man. Alan discusses his attraction to Black people, and his limited experience around Black folks while growing up in Calgary. He also mentions racism in the Mormon community. This man asked Alan to move to Gary, Indiana with him and form a long term relationship (which Alan refers to as “marriage”). Alan declines, as he had “never heard of anyone doing such a thing”. Alan also mentions that he got gonorrhea around the same time.
Dates and locations discussed: Orton, Calgary, Alberta, Toronto, 1930s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE D:
Alan describes going on to visit a doctor to discuss the gonorrhea. Alan let him believe the person he got it from was a woman, but did specify that it was from a person who was part of a travelling show. The doctor suggested that Alan should not sleep with people who are part of travelling acts. Alan confronted the man (named Jesse) about the Gonorrhea, but Jesse denied it. Alan also suggests that Jesse being Black was part of him losing interest. Alan discusses going to his first gay party, at someone else’s summer cottage. This person’s father was a senator, but Alan feels very uncomfortable disclosing the senator’s name to Lionel. Eventually, Alan discloses the name of the senator’s gay son: “Hugh Buchanan” (sp?). Alan mentions taking dance lessons, so that he could “become popular”.
Dates and locations discussed: Orton, Calgary, Alberta, Toronto, 1930s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
BC was born in 1929, in Fort William, Ontario. He describes his early childhood; wearing his sister’s clothing in 1935 and his family commenting on his femininity. He was very close with his mother growing up. BC’s real name is mentioned in the interview: William Edward. He goes by ‘Bill’. …
SIDE A:
BC was born in 1929, in Fort William, Ontario. He describes his early childhood; wearing his sister’s clothing in 1935 and his family commenting on his femininity. He was very close with his mother growing up. BC’s real name is mentioned in the interview: William Edward. He goes by ‘Bill’. He discusses being feminine/femme a lot of his life: he dressed up as a women at a masquerade party in 1948, and some of the men being attracted to him. A man at the ball offered to drive Bill home, Bill accepted. Driving home, they decide to drive up through the mountains. The man asked Bill if he was a man, and Bill said yes. The driver said he looks cute, and asks to have oral sex with Bill - Bill accepted. Bill describes enjoying it thoroughly, and how he ‘felt like he really loved me’. Later on, Bill met the man’s wife at a store. This made Bill feel very guilty. He also found out the man had two kids. The man to continued to ask him to have sex with him. Bill went on to work at a bank, and attempted to initiate sex with another man. This was not successful, but Bill played it off as being too drunk. Bill recalls going swimming during the Depression, and seeing other boys swimming nude and being attracted to them. An adult man noticed, and told Bill to have oral sex with him. Bill was 8 at the time. Bill was excited to do it again, but moved away and never saw him again. Bill discusses a third man he had sex with, named Dick. He also mentions another man, Elle, who Bill considered to be a ‘fruit’. Elle had a wife, but his wife knew he was gay and even knew that Bill was sleeping with him in the 1960s. Elle was also in love with Dick, and jealous of Bill’s relationship with Dick. Elle had another friend, Donnie, who was gay as well. Bill felt ‘sick’ because Donnie was so effeminate. Bill describes himself as being very cruel to Donnie. Then, the phone starts ringing. Lionel answers the phone.
Dates and locations: Toronto, Fort Williams, Port Arthur, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s
SIDE B:
Bill describes visiting Toronto while living in Port Arthur. He quit his job in Port Arthur and began going on lake boats. On the boats, he began meeting other men and taking them to bars and ‘whorehouses’ in Fort William. He was fearful of them discovering he was gay. He became attracted to one of the deckhands, and sees this deckhand mutually masturbating with another deckhand. Bill does not join. He quit the boat and, through the Seamen’s Union’ got a job on the DC Everest from Marathon, Ontario. BC fell in love with another man on the boat, Johnny. He confesses his love for Johnny, but Johnny rejected him. He ended up going up to another man’s room, but then rejecting this man. The next day, the other men on the boat made fun of him for spending time with the gay man (they use the term ‘crabapple’). The chef on the DC Everest takes an interest in him. The chef also mentions that the captain of the ship is interested in Bill. Bill arrives in Toronto and goes to visit his mother there; his mother had married and had three other children. A guy in his quarters invited him to show him ‘the hot spots’, including Retros, the St Charles, the Municipal, and the Bay House. Bill punched the gay in the face after seeing that the bars were ‘full of queers’. The man confesses his love for Bill. Bill tells the captain about the boy, and moved onto the Humber Dock. On the Humber Dock, he feel in love with the electrician. He would smell the electricians underwear. After the shipping season finished, he moved to St Catherine’s for the winter, where he met a man named Herbert. Herbert didn’t work, and instead lived with an older man. Bill and Herbert slept together, and Bill grew fond of him. Bill decided to move to Toronto. Herbert took Bill to Letros. In Toronto, Bill “broke into the gay life”. Bill moved into a home with a group of other queer people, by Park Plaza. One of his housemates, Kit, fell in love with Bill.
Dates and locations discussed: 1950s, 1960s, Toronto, St. Catharines, Marathon, Fort William, Ontario
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE C:
Bill describes Kit as possessive, and says he did not love him. AS a result, Kit kicked him out, and Bill moved to a place in Yorkville. Bill’s experience with Kit made him ‘lose faith in the gay life’. In his new home, Merle, a housemate, confessed his love for Bill. Also, Bill met a man a…
SIDE C:
Bill describes Kit as possessive, and says he did not love him. AS a result, Kit kicked him out, and Bill moved to a place in Yorkville. Bill’s experience with Kit made him ‘lose faith in the gay life’. In his new home, Merle, a housemate, confessed his love for Bill. Also, Bill met a man at the King Cole Room named Paul, a lawyer, who asked Bill to live with him. Bill ran into Paul sleeping with a woman, and decided to move out. Bill moved into another man’s home, Lorne, down the hall from Paul, but he was uninterested in Lorne. He then met another man in the King Cole Room. He mentions wasting 10 years of his life with a man named Nuell (sp?) who was older than him. They stayed together until Nuell died. He also describes his experiences with alcoholism, and quitting drinking with Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill feels sadness about the gay community in the 1980s. He describes the St Charles as dreadful, and full of loneliness. He then describes some of the drag queens at the Bay House: Peggy O’Neill, and Geraldine. He describes them as ‘tough’. He never got into any fights, but he feels that gay men were ‘tough’ in those days. He discusses his sobriety, and the impact it has on his sex life.
Dates and locations discussed: 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, Toronto
SIDE D:
The archivist notes that the date recorded on this tape seems to be incorrect. The recording picks up mid-sentence, discussing someone named Michael who has been phoning BC Bill discusses Paul: Paul got married, and moved to England. It is rumoured that Paul passed away. He also mentions that Kit moved to Florida. Bill says he could never sleep with close friends, Collier says that doing that is ‘what friends are for’. Bill discusses visiting the Romans, his first and only experience in the baths; Bill met someone who was nice there, but he did not take him home. He describes feeling ‘guilty’ after visiting the bathhouse. He discusses lesser known parks for curising, specifically a park near Lawrence station in Toronto (possibly Muir Gardens?). He slept with a priest that he met in this park. He also mentions that he has a partner, John, at the time of the interview, but he feels uncertain if John loves him. He mentions that he is not interested in younger men, and does not do the Grosvenor strip. Bill also expresses his attraction to Lionel Collier, the interviewer. Bill discusses Peter Marshall. He met Peter Marshall through Letros. The audio is interrupted at this point (approx 20 min in). The audio returns with Bill continuing his description of Peter Marshall. Bill also discusses his experience coming out to his aunt, and his experiences with alcohol. He also discusses an altercation with the police, and the murder and investigation of his friend Jim Taylor, who was beaten to death by baseball bat 12 years prior to Interview. He discusses the murder of his other friend, Jimmy McIntyre, and the suicide of his friend Ray.
Dates and locations discussed: 1970s, 1980s, Toronto
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
